Bravespace Workplaces with Author Moe Carrick #184

Moe Carrick: Thriving at work actually has a ripple effect in my home and in my neighborhood and in my town that I think is just incalculable

Aaron: Brothers and sisters. Welcome back to another episode of work life. Play my guests today and fellow curated, amazing human is Moe Carrick. Mo Carrick is a speaker, consultant, facilitator, coach, author, and is passionate about creating workplaces that people love and thrive. So I have a deep passion myself about we spend, I just was listening to podcasts yesterday. We spend anywhere from 70,000 to 120,000 hours of our life at work. So you know what? It better sure as hell be good, and we better be intentional about how we're causing and creating that, that it's not on others for that to be created for us. And Moe has some really great ideas, um, a couple of books as well on how to make work, uh, habitable for human, for human, safe for humans and worth the humans can thrive. So I know you'll enjoy all of her work. You can find everything. Moe Carrick at moecarrick.com. Settle in for great conversation. And other, again, just, uh, yeah, work-life play where all of the lines get blurred and, uh, impossible to figure out exactly whether we're working or whether it's art. Here we go. This is good for you. You can do this. Keep going.

On your site, you say, “My work is dedicated to helping leaders make workplaces fit for human life, period.” That dot, dot, dot. “So organizations can do all the fun stuff that they need to do.” So tell me about fit for human life.

Moe Carrick: Well, you know, I think probably a lot like you, Aaron, with, uh, I've, I'm a fan of your, you know, your book. And for me, what I, what I see and why I've decided to put some of my thoughts and ideas down into brave space workplace is that I think we've known in the realm of organizational development of people, development of leadership and strategy. I think, you know, we've known what it takes to make companies work for people for a long time. I mean, I got my graduate degree in 1999 just to date myself. Um, and you know, we knew it then, but we're still not doing it. You know, we still see globally and certainly here in North America, a vast majority of employees who are reporting, feeling, you know, on engaged and disenfranchised and in some cases, you know, the harmed and diminished by the, the dynamic set they at work. And, um, I really do believe and have seen in the course of my career that what makes companies and organizations of all types great are the people in them. And so if the people in them are only firing on 20% of their capacity, then than it doesn't benefit anybody. So I think, you know, when I say fit for human life, I'm really looking at what, what are the conditions under which humans do well and how do companies design themselves to be more suited, uh, for us. You know, in a nutshell.

Aaron: So if you're the resident expert in house then on what does make it suitable for humans to thrive, what do you, what do you view found out? What are you now?

Moe Carrick: Well, there's two. I would say two bodies of work that I, that I focus on a lot in the book and and certainly in my practice too, and the first is a better understanding of what it is that we need from work. And that research started with my first book, which is called fit matters, how to love your job, which I wrote with my coauthor Cammie Dunaway coming was then the CMO of, or the SEP, excuse me, a sales marketing for Nintendo of North America. She's now a dual lingo and Cammy was one of those people who joined Nintendo because she thought it would be a job of her dreams. She came over from Yahoo. She was like, this is going to be great. And she only lasted in that senior role for two years and at that time I was coaching their president and executive team and she was surprised like, why didn't this work out? You know, it looks so good at the beginning. And so we started really poking out together, just kind of informally as friends and colleagues, like what, you know, what did happen? What is this thing called work fit? It's clearly not the same thing as fitting in. 

And, um, and that's where I began to, we began together to unpack this idea of what are the things people need from work. We actually ended on six in fit matters and with brain space, I've added a seventh, um, things that we need from work. And I'm happy to walk through those if you want, but I would, you know, it's interesting because a lot of them are connected to our basic human needs. And you probably remember Maslow's hierarchy right from, you know, psych one Oh one. Um, and, and you know, a lot of mezzos models still fix, you know, still sticks today, I think.

But there's some parts of it that are, that have been debunked by Sirius that are smarter and more in that space than me. But, but what I'm noticing and what we've noticed in our research is that a lot of our basic human needs are now largely fulfilled more than ever from work because of our 24, seven plugged in this and the meaning that we extract from our identities that are connected to work, especially if we're working, um, you know, full time. So the seven things without sort of belaboring them are, you know, the first is to meet our basic needs, which has to do with our, uh, our salary and our non compensation benefits. And that's what helps us provide ourselves and our families, you know, food, water, shelter, safety and security, which were all at the base level of Maslow's hierarchy. Um, what I find fascinating about that one, and I'm sure you've seen this in your work too, Aaron, is that, you know, when, when all things are, um, are equal, if we feel that two conditions exist, one is that we feel paid fairly.

The second is that we can meet our basic needs. You know, we can provide some shelter, safety, security and water for our people. That one falls really quickly to the bottom of the list, especially for the millennials and the entry generations. It's not so much a driver as it was, but it stays in first place if those two conditions aren't met, which is powerful when we think about minimum wage jobs and the wage gap, you know, that we have here in North America. So that's first one. And then in no particular order, the others include our need to learn to grow, to be better tomorrow than we were yesterday. It's, it's a human need and we seek it out in the workplace in a variety of ways. From the C suite down to the frontline. We need to be seen, which has to do with having someone know our name and maybe know a little bit of our story.

My, um, my 18 year old daughter got her first job in high school in her senior year. She finished in a nontraditional way and she was suffering from some anxiety and I noticed she was, had a lot of trouble getting to school on time and stuff, but she made it to this job every day. She was a dishwasher on time early, you know, and she just loved this job. And I asked her one day like, why, what is it you love so much about working at this job? And she just looked at me, she didn't hesitate. She said, mom, they're expecting me. And I thought, yeah, that's it. That's being seen. That's knowing that we have a bed for somebody knows, you know, somebody needs us to be there. And of course, you know, Maslow did, did identify that as one of our needs, um, around, you know, making a difference.

We need to be able to make our life work. You know. And this one I think is really big right now in the post recession economy, of course, who knows with what we're going into with Covid-19. Um, but we've seen the dynamics of people wanting to work their work around their life more than ever before, whether it's to support their hobbies or to have quality time with their families or to be a caregiver. Um, we want our life to work and we need our workplace to, um, to help us do that rather than the other way around. We need to contribute, which I define as really doing something that matters to someone. And oftentimes people ask me, well, do you mean that you know, every organization needs to have, you know, needs to be purpose driven or exists for the common good. And I don't think that's really what we mean by this piece.

I think the more we're talking about, do I as an employee at whatever level, do I know why, what I'm doing matters to someone? And if I don't, why am I doing it?

Aaron: It's a link to purposes of what you're referring to?

Moe Carrick: It is, it is, but it doesn't have to be a highfalutin purpose like that. I'm just working for, you know, um, a mission driven organization that's a nonprofit or somebody that's changing the world with climate change. It doesn't have to be that. It can't be that I'm manufacturing a product that I for some reason believe in and that I know if I'm in finance and I'm working in spreadsheets every day, what about that matters? You know, how does that help? Um, so I, I think that that's a place where managers actually can do a much better job is helping their employees understand why, why do I need to mop the floor in this exact way? Why do I need to count this inventory four times? You know, what's, what's behind that? And again, being able to explain it.

The last one I think I've gone through them all is to connect. And this has to do with really, um, our social connections with each other. We're hardwired as human beings for social connection. And this is the one that I think Aaron has been kind of debunked from Maslow's hierarchy because he had our need for human connection. He put it in kind of a love and belonging category about midway up his pyramid. But modern theorists from Daniel Goldman to Renee Brown, who's a mentor of mine, really have put our need for human connection right down at the same level as soon as water, shelter, safety and security. So, you know, when we think of that another way without social connection, we will die. And we see a lot of evidence of that and a lot of efforting of what is actually a, um, uh, crisis globally right now of disconnection. And I think particularly for those of us working full time, we bring that need for connection right into the workplace. We don't wear a sign on our neck like Paddington bear that says, please connect with me, but we might, you know, we might as well.

Aaron: I have a question for you then. Why are we so complex?

Moe Carrick: Good question. Um, I, you know, I don't know. We've evolved to being as complex. You know, we're, um, we're sensitive creatures, we're intelligent creatures. We adapted, you know, in an evolutionary way that makes us interdependent. And, um, I think that, you know, I don't know. It's, it's a good question. Like, why are we so complex? Because I sometimes wonder are we that complex or are we just, has the world of work failed to manage well are nuanced human needs. And, and what I sometimes talk about is that, you know, are like management theory formed in the post industrial revolution based on a manufacturing model of one to many. You know, people move from agrarian societies in factories. We had an overseer kind of, I always think of Les Miserables, you know, the movie and the Broadway show where you have all the sewing machines in a line.

And you know, that that was kind of how we originally started thinking about what's the role of, and I think those kinds of circumstances are not the majority of workplaces today. And even those work environments didn't actually bring out the best in people. People were caused harm by some of those really brutal work conditions, which is why, you know, unions develop. So I sometimes wonder, are we, you know, yeah, we are complex, but we all, but all, or are we just, um, are we fairly simple but our needs are nuanced to meet, I don't know.

Aaron: Yeah, that's really good. What I've always wondered is, so my grandparents were on the tail end of the Great Depression. Then they would tell stories about just like the immense gratitude that they even had work and that it was such a big deal. Like, Oh my gosh, I work on Monday and I've worked on Tuesday and I've worked on Wednesday. And it didn't subtract from the fact that it was challenging or tiring or those things. There was such stability that came with having consistent work that foundationally created stability within the spousal of those hierarchy of needs, food, clothing and shelter that that was taken care of. That I wonder if these other needs that have always been there for connection, for belonging, being seen, growing, learning, et cetera, that those were just simply suppressed and overrun by the dominant need of food, clothing, and shelter.

Whereas an, and now fast forward in our Western world, um, now for most people, not all, but most people, um, in the Western world, their basic level of food, clothing and shelter, you know, are, are taken care of. And then then, then it creates the ability, um, or room or space for these other longings that have always existed in us to actually have space in a, in a voice. And then it becomes a lot more complex in how do we create environments that unlock this? Because if you're the manager who has an employee who's mopping a floor, and what you're saying is that there isn't a need for that manager to articulate the importance of why to mop the floor a particular way or why to count the backstock four times. It's an interesting skillset that we're asking, right? To say, Hey, I know that this, um, very task driven job, like here's a start, here's a finish, here's a task, complete this. But then make sure you embed in that purpose and meaning behind the task. They know how it connects to the greater good. Um, as well as make sure you interact with the human while they're doing it so they know that they're valuable and that you see them just like your daughter at work. Like all of a sudden when we're asked what we're asking for people to do at work is much more than we would have asked them to do 40 or 50 years ago, I would think.

Moe Carrick: Yeah. No, I think that's totally true. And I also think that it's possible that we actually, it wasn't as imperative in some ways that we brought our full selves to work 40 or 50 years ago. You know, there were some notable differences like we didn't have 24, seven connectivity, right? So we got to leave jobs,

Aaron: Turn it off the door and drive away.

Moe Carrick: Totally. Totally. People didn't have to carry their work home. And then they also, like you said, because there were some triaging of basic needs, there was a sense of there is, you know, work and life and people worked to make the money to have the life that they want. And I think that while that's still a fundamental driver today, I think it's a light has actually gotten a lot more complex, um, around what it looks like to feel that we're adding value and what it means to exist in relationship to one another. I think that a lot of that is, is more complex than a service economy in a digital economy and in a global economy than it perhaps ever has been.

Aaron: And will you say also that I said Fastly believe and maintain that our work and our lives are not separate and our joy in one impacts the other. So say more about how the fact that we are where we are wherever we are.

Moe Carrick: Well, you know, I think that it's easy to read a book like mine or you know, book from another set of management theorist or whatever and sort of say as if you're a leader in a company and sort of just say, gosh, you know, as a leader, as a CEO of this company, is it my job to make sure everybody there is happy? You know, and I like to differentiate between happiness and thriving. And I think it is a leader's job to make sure people are thriving. But I also think that we as individuals have an obligation to be responsible for both our own thriving and our own happiness. And you talked about this some don't you in your book, um, around, you know, firing your boss and, and being, discovering the work, being in the work in a different way, being responsible for your own, uh, level of, of engagement, your own attitude, your own mindset.

And I think that what I think matters there is how you contextualize it, how you think about it, how you work with it behaviorally day in and day out. Um, and I think just separating saying, well, this is how I am at work and this is how I live in life. I just don't think that works anymore. I think we're, you know, we're, we're one in the same, the way we show up in our lives is very much consistent with the way we show up in our work. And so to me, the opportunity to become more effective, more happy, more content, more successful in one means I'm going to set myself up to improve the other. Have you read, um, it's kind of a dark read. Um, Jeffrey Pfeffer's book dying for a paycheck. Oh man. It's, you know, have a glass of wine or a beer when you're drinking it cause it's kind of, it's kind of dark.

But Ben was a Stanford researcher. I love the stuff that he puts out. And he, he did some pretty comprehensive analysis of the physical cost, the healthcare costs of work, overwhelm and work dissatisfaction on our society at large. And it's really, you know, scary, right? I mean, we're killing people with the workplace right now and we're in because we're killing people and we're making people sick, we're causing stress related illness where we're having an individual not do as well as they could be. That of course impacts the family and that impacts the community and that impacts the town and the city and the nation. And so for me, like the place of work, like thriving at work actually has a ripple effect in, you know, in my home and in my neighborhood and in my town, that I think is just incalculable.

Aaron: Yes. And that's the highlight. I even see a like on your website how you have our work and our lives are not bolded the word not separate. Yeah. And that our joy in one impacts the other. And you're right. Like I think that what we'll see as we fast forward a decade or maybe two is that we'll have more and more and more and more proof and data, how they aren't separate and how harming wherever there's harm happening in our lives, whether it's in our community and our marriages and our, you know, our diets, our sleep patterns, our social media intake, our work hours or work environment, all of these things that we're just going to find more and more proof over time. How it's all connected. And that back to the question of what thriving looks like. And I find oftentimes that it's more helpful to start with that question of if you start with the end in mind, if you start with the designing for the outcomes on what would it look like to bounce out of bed and be in a place that you are in your life and the whole of your life relationally, wherever you were, you found that you were in life, giving relationships, be seen, connected to grow, to learn, you know, have basic level needs, met, those kinds of things, making a difference, having an impact, what would that look like?

And then all of a sudden you can then apply that to these different networks that we live in. So it's the work network where we actually drive to a job if that's how some people work or if it's in the community the neighbor is, and all of a sudden you can begin to architect an engineer, what might that look like versus the dying for a paycheck? I have another interview that I just did recently and he called it the Maslow's hierarchy of needs is so many people spend the majority of their time, 90% of the time just paying the rent. This idea of identity and belonging, longing, relational connection, meaning purpose. They actually don't prioritize it, um, because they're just in the fight to pay the rent. And whereas the folks that actually flip that, whether economically it's capable, you're capable of doing that immediately or not, what are the ways we can begin to flip that, to prioritize the areas to feed our own, um, thriving or enjoy meter or soul, whatever you would like to call it, so that we can build in these rhythms, these decisions, these relationships, these habits, these rituals, these things that can actually begin to feed the deeper part of us over time, can unlock our ability to make sure we're always paying the rent versus being in that vicious cycle.

And I know that, um, I'm saying all of that as I grew up, uh, with a single mom on food stamps. So I'm not saying that from a place of privilege. Um, I'm saying that from just having watched it myself, um, unfold, um, over the decades.

Moe Carrick: Yeah, no, I think that's really, that's really powerful, you know, and it is a privilege to be able to think about those things now and, and, and, you know, you and I both I think have some dimension of privilege in terms of being white and being, you know, being in the world that, that we're navigating, we're able bodied. Um, and at the same time it's an emboldened thing where we have privilege and then other areas we may be at a disadvantage. I too had, you know, food stamps as a kid. And I think what's powerful when, what you're saying is that by, by thinking differently about myself in relationship to my work or to my job, I can actually, you know, influence what's within my control. I can make it better. And, and something that, that brings to mind for me, and I was, this is one of the things I definitely wanted to talk to you a little bit about, and I want to tell you a little bit about the five levers for change.

Right? So those are the seven things that people lead from work. And then what I'm saying, in braided spaces, it's all right, there's these seven things that companies and leaders ought to be doing. And the first one is what I call the human essentials, the who, and it has two parts leaders with head and heart habits and teams to care for and leaders with head and heart habits. I, I'm struck with the topic of your book and then what I know to be true, which is that even if I'm doing that mindset work, even if I'm really trying to, um, to be present and accounted for in my role around, I had to then my commitment to knowing why I'm doing what I'm doing and all of that stuff. If I work for a real jerk, that's going to be really hard for me to thrive, you know, and consistently over and over again for the past 30 years, what we've known is that people don't leave jobs. They leave bosses.

Aaron: Yeah, that's great.

Moe Carrick: So that role becomes super important in terms of what both of us were saying, isn't it? You know, around who you immediately work for has a huge impact on the level of satisfaction and contentment you might drive from that work. When I say that out loud and I think about that, I think about it makes me think that for an employee, not someone who's in a leadership role, that makes it important for me to think about how do I develop a good with my, with my supervisor, you know, a healthy, authentic, wholehearted relationship, which can be scary because of the power dynamic. Um, but it certainly puts pressure on the bosses of the world, the people that do supervise and are the gatekeepers for how we know our companies to sharpen their tools, you know, to become as, as effective as they can, have healthy relationships with their employees. And, um, leading in a, in a brave way,

Aaron: I think it was a Harvard business review article that said, um, basically statistically if you have a bad boss or a good boss, uh, today that relationship and how important it is that you're highlighting that people leave bosses, not uh, jobs or careers, what you can count on two out of 10 are going to be great and possess the just kind of natural DNA. They just are great people, green leaders and you follow them anywhere. An eight out of 10 I'm need some level of development work of wow, that's really explains a lot. So it's interesting to me that if eight out of 10 need a lot of assistance and development in, they are as humans and leaders in the integration of that, you know, dissolving the lines between who you are as a person at home and who you are as a person at work. I just find how it's interesting how little time we actually spend an effort in developing people if that statistic is actually true.

Moe Carrick: Yeah, no, I think it's really a great observation. And I would even add to it, not only just developing people but developing people at the frontline. Because what I see in the, in the, in the places I work is that, you know, we, we, if we invest anywhere, it's the most for the C suite and the top of the entity. And I'm not saying that investment is not wise, it is, but we also need to be passing at the very front line. You know, the new supervisor, the person who is on the factory floor or in a retail environment on the house floor or whatever, who's, who's actually the one who's interacting with those, you know, the big volume of the workforce day in and day out. I think what I have seen consistently is we are unmarked best there and um, and those folks matter so much, you know, to, to our experience.

Aaron: Yeah. It's like if we can unlock the magic middle, just think of what we could do.

Moe Carrick: Oh, totally right. I mean, and activate that. And I've seen that, and I'm sure you have too, in some workplaces where the magic middle is like really on fire and the employees are having a fabulous experience. And also then the senior leaders are succeeding there. They're making goals and they too are feeling, um, you know, activated and, um, and that their role is highest and best use. You know, and, and here's something else I'm curious about your point of view on this. I mentioned that first skill, but who, who skill has this head and heart habits is how I call it. 

And what I notice is that, yeah, most of the time when, when any of us get promoted, we get promoted largely because of what I'd call our head habits, like our cognition or our skill that's been cultivated over time. You know, we're good at our jobs. We get promoted to be a leader or a supervisor. And you know, that makes sense in some ways. But I can't tell you, Aaron, how many leaders I work with who have been promoted because they're good at their job and then they wake up on the other side of that and they're like, yeah, but nobody told me about leading. 

Aaron: Well, I think that, uh, what I've, what I've observed is, um, and this is true for me early, early on in my career is uh, being rewarded basically as an individual contributor. I had an infectious ability to be able to recruit other people to come along with me, but it wasn't necessarily the same as leading. And what I mean by that is I was able to rally people around a cause, just dig in and bring people with me. And what I've discovered is then when I got put in leadership roles, and I've watched this with other leaders, I'm working with right now, is then it's a very different skill set to begin to evaluate what is it that I'm doing or that I did that I now need to figure out how to magnify and amplify across the organization among other people. How do I begin to translate this, embed this, um, what are the choices? Cause a lot of it to me was instinct along the way and experiments and failures and all kinds of things.

But realizing that leadership is actually, um, this great quote that I have that, um, Seth Godin wrote is that he talks about leaders create an environment in which people choose to change and it's safe to change and there's an upside for change and for transformation and that it's still their choice. But that's a very different skillset to create an environment in which people is safe to fail, safe to dry, safe to tell the truth, safe to be seen, safe to be known. Like that's very different than just being a real kick ass individual contributor who got rewarded and got put on, you know, some management team.

Moe Carrick: Right, right. No, I think it's so, it's so true. And, and I think for me, that's what I put into that hard skills category. You know, all the ways we inspire all the ways we connect, the ways we create emotionally fluent relationships. Um, I have a quote in the book that I have memorized that I happen to like, which is, I talk about how inspiring leaders know that emotion isn't something that they need to get out of the way before getting their work done. But it's rather the core drive that fuels their team. Like that's how we have hope. You know, that's how we believe go this way versus go that way. And I think those skills aren't cultivated in business school and they're not cultivated in grade school and in high school

Aaron: And they weren't needed or necessary to get where they are today, oftentimes. So then it disrupts. I was at a workshop with the executive team recently and, um, this is, I don't know, maybe a couple months ago, and one of the leaders said, I don't know why we're talking about feelings at work. So great. It was such a great conversation. It was like, Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Let's talk about that. Why are we, and, um, how is it that we've gotten so far in the work world believing those things belong in the trunk of our car? Where we should have left them this morning, you know? And so we had a great conversation like, Oh, okay, well we've created a binary world, um, that we live in and we pretend that we are robots during the day and then, you know, we can go pick up our bag of feelings that we left in the trunk of our car when we go home and then deal with those when we leave. Like to me it's just actually comical. It's almost like cartoon like, but again, here we are and the more complexity, the more change, the more uncertainty that we face in the world, then I think it's just forcing our hand in integrating these things into our reality of everyday at work.

Moe Carrick: I love that reframe that you may put them in the moment. And when you're talking about cartoon, it makes me think about this image I have some times that I've talked about this with the clients is like, I think sometimes in the workplace we've become these sort of caricatures like they're sort of like stick figures that have these giant balloon heads and like tiny atrophied hearts. You know, like we just, we think, we think we focus on our analysis and our logic and you know, and those are not, those are important skills. There's only we can get away with not thinking, but we know and we've researched and the evidence is clear for us out there, not just my research, but others research that says that actually we need to be mining, mining the data that exists within us, which is our feelings States. And you know, the funny thing is, is, and it's like we say, Oh yeah, let's, you know, and we've been trained I think in business for sure, that we leave our emotions in the trunk of the car.

But the reality is we don't, we carry them right into work and they leak out all over the place causing harm. You know, through rumors and gossip, you know, back channeling and all of the ways that they show up. They're so unhealthy. We just aren't talking about them, but they're present. You know, they're totally present, which is, which is, by the way, part of what drew me back in 2014 to Bernie Brown's work. Um, I think that, you know, she's one of the real heroes out there who's articulated through her research and with her team on approach to making it easier to recognize emotional intelligence as a leadership skill through the lens of courage. You know, because somehow when we talk about courage and we introduced vulnerability based on Bearnaise research, I'm noticing that people are a lot less resistant. I know it doesn't feel super touchy feely, you know? Um, because it's like, Oh, this is about courage. I gotta be courageous as a leader. Yeah. Well, that means you have to be an emotional being. You have to know what you're feeling. You have to notice other people's feelings. You know, I'm, I'm very grateful to her and her team for that body of work that helps all of us.

Aaron: Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I think that what she's helped do is two things. Um, because it's data driven, then it helped a lot of people, um, rationalize the proof behind why it's meaningful and valuable. Secondly, as you mentioned, it's a reframe to be about courage, not about sappy emotions and crying at work. And then third of all, she's a really big deal and sells a ton of books. So, um, and speaks widely. It has millions and millions of people who watch your videos on YouTube. So as a result, it's like, it, um, kinda softens the soil, the hard soil, you know, throughout the planet, um, in the workplace to say, Oh, you mean like that? And it's still, it's not a, um, does it make it easy work, but it does normalize it to a degree where I feel like it's a little bit less. Um, it looks like a, I feel a little less like a four eyeballs when I'm talking, when anchored in some reference points that people can, I've already previously accepted as and understood as a fair, fair game.

Moe Carrick: Well, totally, I would agree. And I think one of the things that Renee has taught me for sure and that I'm trying to continue to refine my skill at is she's just such a beautiful storyteller that if we all could tell the stories like Bernie Brown, we would have so much better connection with each other and really have higher capacity there. So, um, it's good stuff.

Aaron: Well, I think your beekeeper story is one that's worth mine in there somewhere, somewhere in there, mom telling you there's a keynote you can pull out of there. Everybody's highest and best use. Everybody has a job. Like, I don't know, there was something there.

Moe Carrick: Thank you. I might have to have a living hive like that. This was the recent lawsuit, you know, I came home, my husband and his son had been visiting, they live down in Santa Cruz and he came up and they got into the hive and it was a warm day and I said, Oh, you know how the girls look? And he just looked at me like they were basically dead, like we have maybe a thousand days left. And I was like, okay, that's not, that's not going to be my good leadership story. I've got to have a healthy, thriving hive.

Aaron: I think it's in development. Where do we find, so for folks that want to find more of your work in your body of work in the world, how do we locate you?

Moe Carrick: Yeah, thank you. You can go to moecarrick.com. Um, it's Moe, my name is still Moe. Um, so just Moe Carrick and you can also find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on Facebook. It's all Moe Carrick. And um, the book has its own website, both books do by their title, so brave space, workplace.com or fit matters.biz. And um, I'd love to connect with your listeners and hear their questions and support them in their journey. Especially right now. You know, we probably like you, he's put out a bunch of resources this week and last week that are free when doing, they were calling the brave counsel's ways to get people talking about how to lead, how to be an employee. You know right now in these really strange times that we're in with COVID-19 so I'd love to share that with folks if anybody's needing support.

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