Obsessed to Push with Tommy Caldwell Episode #125

Aaron:
Friends. Welcome to work life play. I'm your host, Aaron McHugh. I'm here to help you find work you love, learn to play, live adventurously, become curious and live your life with joy and purpose. Ready, set. Go.

Aaron:
Welcome to another episode of work life play. Today on the podcast I have a world class athlete, explore adventure record setter and, and really normal guy. His name is Tommy Caldwell and he's the author of a new book that's just out called the push a climber's journey of endurance risk and going beyond the limits. So you know, Tommy Caldwell, you just might not know that you know him. So for those of you that are climbers, spend time in the mountains, adventures, mountaineers, he's a household name. But outside of the norm of that, 18 months ago there was a couple guys fixed attached to a wall in Yosemite and it was this media craze where on the front page and the New York times for six days in a row, they were writing articles about this, this endeavor that this free route they were pushing up on there in Yosemite called the Dawn wall.

Aaron:
And it went crazy, nutty every media outlet and their brother and sister and every orphan attached to them were covering this story. So it became a very household story about how these guys were pushing this route. So I think what you're going to love about today's interview is Tommy and I caught up in downtown Denver right before he started a evening presentation at the Patagonia store. And so we had actually just blown into town. It was a little nutty. I race back home to pick up our 1974 VW joy bus, which I use now as a mobile studio to then drive back to Denver to be able to pick up Tommy and then park across the street in a rain storm while we had a chance to huddle. So you'll definitely wanna check out some of the fun pictures that we took also during the interview, inside the bus and Tommy's super guy, he'd just come from a couple of TV interviews that day and he's on the front page of a lot of things.

Aaron:
He stays. But what was neat was that he was, he's very much just a regular guy. A guy you'd want to hang with guy you want to spend some time with guy you want to learn from and you could tell he's really intentional about what he's doing. And what I found to be most powerful about reading his book as well as just some time with them is just this, you know, I've met a lot of people who don't quit and they just keep going and far beyond when others drop off. And then there's these individuals that have this wherewithal, this grit, this fortitude that just, they keep pushing. And I would say that Tommy Caldwell redefine that for me. He has some capability, some deep part of the furnace of his soul that burns hot and this guy will not quit. And he talks about that in the interview.

Aaron:
He talks about spending seven years up on this route in Yosemite and just a lot that was going on in his life that was fueling that. A lot of the misery of it. And now in a new season and chapter of experiencing some of the highs of those accomplishments, but also just rethinking like, what do I do now? Well I want to be a writer. So he has really amazing guys like John Krakauer writer who wrote, one of my favorite books is a into the wild or Everest about the 1996 accident that occurred up there. And the guys like Jim Collins who is based at, they're both based out of Boulder and Jim Collins wrote a great business book called good to great. So he's got a really fun group of folks that are giving him thumbs up on his book. And from reading it myself, I was very impressed and even asked him about his writing process and how that came to be is here is this world renowned climber, you know, how are you actually good at writing also so you, I think you'll enjoy, definitely take some time to listen to this and listen closely.

Aaron:
He's got some great insights on life. Tommy Caldwell. Welcome to the work life play podcast and the joy bus on 15th street down from the Patagonia store in downtown Denver in a rainstorm and traffic.

Tommy:
Yeah, I got to say this is my first urban in a bus podcast interview. So awesome. So we made these curtains to you. Otherwise I'm looking around. My son would love these curtains, trucks all over him. We're in a bus. Strangely, the indoor handles seem to be to be taken off. What are you doing? This bus door handle doesn't work on the end. You have to be let out. You can't actually get yourself, they're stuck in here.

Aaron:
We're, so Tommy and I, we were found a way to hang out before you do your show tonight at the Patagonia store. And so you're actually on a book tour. So say a little bit about your book and let's just start there and I want to go to a specific question if you just kind of give us some context.

Tommy:
Yeah, so my book is a memoir called the push and it was just released a 16th was the release date. So yeah, this week has been the time when I reveal my, the deepest depths of my soul to the world, which is slightly unnerving, but really cool. Yeah, I was excited. My friend Alex sent me the link

Tommy:
To the Patagonia presentation and so it was an easy like, Oh yeah, let's go. That'd be Epic. Like this is really cool, like time in history to go hear this story. So I guess the question that I wanted to start with that after reading through your book and thinking about your story and watching you over the years and your endeavors and what you've accomplished and the highs and the lows is, what's the thing that for you matters most? You're like, what's the deeper, maybe more transcendent piece that for you is like, this is what all this means to me.

Tommy:
I mean, for me it's all about the life experience. It's funny when people throw out the word accomplishment, I cringe a little bit. You know, it's like I have these big goals that I strive for, but really they're just like a something to focus on. It's just, it's just a venue so I can get out in the mountains and have these great experiences, bond with the people that I'm with and that whole lifestyle, you know, it's about living that life and having something to focus on makes it so that you're going to do it. You know, if you're obsessed about something, you're going to be out there every day trying to get there. And so yeah, I guess it's the journey.

Aaron:
So accomplishment, that's a cringing word. It's not in your repertoire. That's not why you're doing it. You're doing it because it's, it's the total experience of this thing you want to go do with these buddies that you hang with. So say more about that.

Tommy:
Yeah, I mean I think that, I wouldn't say that accomplishment isn't at all why I do it. Like I definitely love to kind of have these dreams and then to have them come to be at some point. But I think that word accomplishment to me feels a bit like ego-driven in a way. You know? It's kind of the same with the word conquer. That's the other really great where the word is thrown around in my life a lot. A lot these days. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't have my mind totally wrapped around why I cringe a little bit.
Aaron:
Well, what I loved about reading your book, and I've heard other interviews and seen films years and lots of stuff of your dad modeled for you, passed to you was that humility was actually the path and that being humble was like an intentional thing. So I think it's interesting that in my mind from hearing you say that aligns with the writing. I just read for the last few hours. I'm just curious like what, how does that fit? Because you for outside looking in, you'd have lots of reasons to brag and beat on your chest and call it conquests, but why? Why don't you, why is that not just who you are?
Tommy:
Yeah, I mean I think I'm a reluctant public figure in a way. Like I ever since I was a teenager, I've sort of been in a spotlight and a bit in this climbing world and I've never felt comfortable, honestly. Like it was just kind of happen because I, and I think it's all derived from the fact that I love going out and having these experiences and I am really driven by personal growth. And that has led to some relatively noteworthy things. But the noteworthy things, I didn't start with that, you know?
Aaron:
Yeah. It didn't start with the intent of being noticed for those things that you were intending.
Tommy:
Right. But I do just the consequences, but I love exploring, you know, I think that I've recognized and I'm at this rare place where I get to push this world of big wall free climbing to places that nobody has. And if you get the chance to like explore something that nobody has, you got to do that
Aaron:
What I've observed and got to watch a film, you and Alex Honnold through the Banff mountain film festival and are kind of in and around that time is when I saw it. And what I thought was really fascinating was it is this like crescendo moment in your climbing career. In that case, in Alex's climbing career, we really is like, there's all this, I call them raw materials that have all happened. It's all in the repertoire and all the experiences from climate with Chris Sharma to what you did on the Dawn wall to all these things, to then this crescendo moment and I think it's really cool that if that's the place that you're in, the idea of like standing up and owning it and saying that, I don't know how I got here other than I worked my ass off to get here, but now I'm going to own it and go for it because this is where I'm supposed to be. So I'm just curious, where does that take you of what's next then for you as you dream? What are some of those dreams as you're at this big wall moment in time that nobody's been out before?
Tommy:
Yeah, that, that's a tough one. Honestly. Like working on something like the Don mall for seven years. Like I don't know if I want to do that again right now. Maybe I'll come up with something like that in the future. That, yeah, I always struggle with that. What's next question? I always have my whole life actually. I think it's like this thing where I get very focused on things and I'm so focused, I don't see beyond them. But once they're done, usually I do find something very quickly cause I'm, you know, just a site person. I find inspiration all over the place. But you know, I think right now I'm intentionally not trying to find one of those things. Kit, maybe for the first time in my life because I'm a, you know, I'm a family guy these days. I need to make sure I'm paying attention to my family and I've just pushed a bit too hard in some ways. But having said that, there's, there's been a lot of times in my life for probably four or five times where I've done a climb where I'm like, it's never going to get any better than that. It's all downhill from here. And then you know, something always turns out.
Aaron:
Yeah. Right. So I'm curious, what are some of the consequences, byproducts, results of the pushing hard, so being incredibly focused and incredibly maybe even microscopic in terms of, of how you've dissected these big endeavors. But then what happens when your peripheral vision shrinks? Really small, like you're saying.
Tommy:
Yeah, you become very non diverse. And one of the reasons I wrote this book is because I recognized that I had been a climber from, you know, since my whole life. But I basically dropped out of high school and I was like, can I actually still use my brain? You know, I wasn't really totally sure. And so writing the book was, I guess an attempt to diversify, but strangely I found it very similar to big climbing projects. Like I started into the book process and it was like, it was like looking up at this big scary mountain that I had no idea how to climb. So I was just like, Oh, I'll just do it. Like I do a climb, I'll find a team, I'll get there, I'll do some research. And I'll just start at the beginning and see where it takes me.
Aaron:
That's really cool. So say more about that. I'd love to hear about just how long of a process has that been to get to a place where you now book tour, but take us back and when did you actually start typing the first framework or an outline or get a team together? How did it begin and when was it?
Tommy:
Yeah, so after the Don wall media craze, like that thing blew up in the media in this unbelievable way. I guess. Actually before that I knew I wanted to write a book kind of because I just recognized that I had a pretty extraordinary story with these things I've been to. And more than that though, I needed to process it myself. Like there's all these experiences in my life that I had been through that I hadn't really let myself think about deeply. And I'd done that through writing for articles for Albeniz climbing and rock and ice over the year. So I'd grown to love writing, but I didn't really think I was going to ride a whole life memoir. I thought you had to be an old man to do that. Totally. Yeah. But then when the Dawn wall thing blew up, all of a sudden there was opportunity to do that.
Tommy:
Like I had a bunch of emails in my inbox afterwards. Yeah, yeah. And when you get down from the wall. Yeah. And then the other part of it that made me really want to do it now is all that media was just the tip of the iceberg, like the New York times. And NPR did a really good job with those stories, but everybody else was just playing into this sensationalistic side of it. And I was like, this isn't really capturing climbing the way that I see it. And so I almost wanted to write that. I wanted to give people a chance to see the whole story. And so that's why I decided to do it then. But then when I actually sat down and started writing, the first thing I wrote was the kurgastan chapter. And specifically the moment when I pushed this guy off a cliff, which was just this crazy life changing moment that I had never let myself deeply meditate on. And when I was writing it, it was a really incredible experience for me. I was like crying, you know, I was writing, I could like smell the smells and hear the sounds and feel the fear again. And it put me back in that way. But somehow writing about it, it just processes it differently. And it's almost like I had a broader view than I did even there in the moment. And I wanted to go back and re-experience my whole life with that sort of broader view.
Aaron:
So really then what I hear you saying is in these really small microscopic viewed lenses, moments when you've taken on these big adventures, which then produce these amazing things that you've been able to accomplish, it also maybe hadn't given you the luxury to go back and actually, what do I think what I feel? Well a lot's happened. So the writing actually has been able to flush some of that out starting with the kurgastan story.
Tommy:
Yeah, I mean I think that as climbers and really athletes, one thing that we do is we focus in so tightly because if you see the whole view, it's too scary or there's too many extraneous stuff that's going to make you nervous or whatever. And so you have to focus in. But in writing it's the opposite. I think you have to see everything.
Aaron:
So I've been writing now for this podcasts and writing books and what it reminds me of is it's like almost like on my GoPro and you get home and I end up with all these like thumbnails and some are videos and some are stills and some are bursts and, and so then like to actually go back through them and like kind of curate the keepers. What are the ones that Oh yeah, that was a really good one. Oh yeah. Remember that story. And so, but I like those, it helps me in writing freeze frame moments to be able to then like slow everything down like you do on a GoPro still. I'm like, Oh yeah, that's what was happening over here or that's what that, I think that's what that felt like or that's what I think I was thinking when this was happening. So actually like writing for that purpose to go back, it's like a rewind, you know, or like I call it B roll footage, you know, it's like going back through the B roll to actually pick out the highlight reels and then to actually know what to do with them.
Aaron:
And some of it didn't occur to me what was happening. That would actually was really cool. Highlight real footage, quality occurrences and experiences or moments that just pass by so fast. I didn't keep them, but then the writing actually helps me go back and like, I don't know.
Tommy:
Yeah, totally. I can understand that. Like, like life happens very fast as you say, and it happened so fast. In fact that you can't really derive meaning from a lot of these experiences unless you give yourself a venue in time to actually do that. And writing is kind of the best way.
Aaron:
So go back to then and how long for the writing process when you started with teargas sand chapter, how long ago was that?
Tommy:
Yes. I wrote that chapter in that became like the sample chapter for my proposal. I spent two months writing the book proposal and I also hired my good friend Kelly Cortez. It was like my next door neighbor and he wrote a great book called the tower and he became, you know, I, like I said, I approached it like a mountain. You always need a good partner to climb the mountains. Who is that? And he became sort of my collaborator on the whole thing. So I would write chapters, I would sit, you know, I spent about 30 to 40 hours a week for a year and a half working on this book. So it was a lot really. And then Kelly, after I would finish sections, he would help me elevate them. He would read them, we would dissect them, he'd Delfy me elevate, we'd move things around, we'd go on ski tours together and we'd brainstorm ahead.
Tommy:
And we became incredibly close, like through this whole experience. He was like, not only am I writing doctor called him but also like my personal therapist. Yeah, that's Fred. And it was cool. It was like a clay. It was like, I think we learned this through climbing. We, we formed these very, very deep relationships because you're doing something together that's a bit scary and really challenging. And we were able to just like apply that to the writing world, which I don't know if people do that that much honestly. Like a lot of people just go in there, deepen their head or they hire somebody else to write a book for them or whatever. We did it in this very collaborative just awesome way. That's super cool. Cause I wonder
Aaron:
While I was reading it, I was really impressed with the writing and so I was curious, one of the things I wanted to ask and hear more about was like, okay, Hey did you write this? Where was this? I don't think it would be uncommon for someone in your position to narrate a bunch of stories and then a ghost writer goes off and writes it. So that's really cool that this is your work with a writing doctor to, like you said, enhance and have the stories be distilled and powerful as much as possible.
Tommy:
That's awesome. And that's how writing has, you know, I know that's how it's worked in, in the climbing world because climbers come back and then they work with the magazines with really good editors. So I just wanted to format the experience like that. So cool. Yeah.
Aaron:
So let's, let's talk specifically then for listeners about the Dawn wall. So seven years, this major project and you know somebody's Valley, talk about how the inception of the idea begin and then you mentioned media frenzy. So I'd like to just bring listeners up to speed on some of that that maybe they, they're like, Oh, you're the guy. I remember seeing that. Okay. So talk us through the project itself and some of the vision for it.
Tommy:
Yeah, so the inception, I've spent 20 plus years of my life focused on climbing on El cap alone. And so when I was a teenager, I went there and I climbed the South a wall and it was like the most dramatic, exciting moment of my life at the time I was like this, you know, I went and I failed miserably the first time actually. And I was like, I'm never going to go up there again. But then you know, luckily I have a very short term memory for paying back. I went back and succeeded and it was like such this exciting thing. I was like anything else that exists in climbing pales in comparison to that. And I fell in love with that process on El cap specifically and then so I spent the next 10 12 years just trying to repeat all the roots and then establish my own and climbed all over that wall.
Tommy:
But there's this one section of the wall that just, I mean it looked impossible really. There's no cracks systems that follow usually follow cracks. And so I got to a point where I was like, I'm maybe the one person in the world. You understand that this could be possible. Like, I know how I've trained myself my whole life to climb on this kind of stuff. Like if I want to do something really cool, this should be it. So I took it on as kind of a research project. At first I gathered tons of rope, I swung all over the thing. I spent a year trying to find the line
Aaron:
Just time on this blank face. Yeah. Just trying to see if there was something could go.
Tommy:
Yeah, really, I didn't realize that. Okay. Yeah. And it's like the difference between what goes and doesn't go as you know, a couple of dimes size edges or something. So it's really hard to find that path. And honestly, I, I got to a point, I was like, I think this maybe goes, but I'm never going to be able to do it. I gave up several times, but I'd always come back to it. You know, I always got drawn back and so yeah, I never intended it to be a seven year process in the first place. But I mean there's plenty of times where I was like, I'm wasting my whole life up on this wall. Toiling away.
Aaron:
Yeah. In that toilet. What was that like? I guess in some ways as it reminds me of like a gold prospector. Yeah. Ratchet away in the dirt. Yeah. Fond some veins occasionally that give some hope and promise. But then on the one hand, like sport is a genius. Yeah. Or is it just,
Tommy:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah and it's all those things all on the same day. Yeah. I got all, I got the whole spectrum. Like there was a lot of times when I was up there I'd, I'd found the route at a time in my life where I had just gotten through this super painful divorce and I needed something, you know? And so then you sink your teeth into something to distract me more than anything. And I think that's why I stuck it out for like the first year or so. Cause I was like, what else do I have? You know? Yeah. And through that process I, you know, like at first it was quite miserable cause I was up there by myself and I would be up there in the middle of winter and there's eyes fall. It was scary and I was like, what am I, I'm just like just like have nothing going in life.
Tommy:
I'm just up here alone. It was like, it was felt like I was stranded on a desert Island or something. Interesting. And that was just like a thousand feet off the Valley floor to just to give people context when you say you're up here. Yeah. And then so I gave up, I was just like, after that I was like, I think this maybe goes but this is not something I should do. And then a friend of mine called me and he wanted to make a film about it. And at this point I didn't think I'd ever do it. I was like, I don't know, we just probably shouldn't make a film. And he's like, we should put it out there for the next generation. Even if you're not going to do it, we should put it out there. So I went up there, we gathered a team of five of us and there are my best friends.
Tommy:
You know, there was, these are like people I've worked with as filmmakers since I was a teenager really. And suddenly I had five friends up there on the wall with me and it, it changed from being this very miserable thing to being this like party. And we sat there and I was, you know, I like poured my heart out to these guys and you're in this, you're hanging out at night and these little port alleges and it's this very intimate setting. And I was like, if I could format this experience of working on this route like this with these five guys, I could withstand like however long it, you know, five years, 10 years, whatever it takes. And so that's why I started. Yeah, I started inviting friends up there. Pro brought people up there had never been on El cap, but it became this very social thing.
Tommy:
And you know, everybody that would go out there, there would be so psyched, you know, we would have this great energy and people that weren't climbers, it was like a life experience. And so I just started to love the process of going up there with all these different people all the time. And then Kevin Jorgenson called me and then I had like a solid partner after that and I started to think, well, if I, even if I can't do it, I want to pass the torch. And Kevin is the one that is interested in receiving that at this point. So I became a mentor to Kevin and that brought even more power to it.
Aaron:
How cool is that man? I didn't realize that that was the progression of despair and toil in isolation to community and connection and me and some buddies.
Tommy:
Yeah. Mean important alleges. Yeah. With a small little city. Blank face. Yeah. And anybody who's spent time on the side of El cap, it's such this crazy altered reality up there. I mean, every like jokes are funny. Everything's just a bit more intense. And so I craved that and I got to a point where I couldn't really figure out a way to live without it. So I would give up and then I would get pressed. It'd be like, why am I giving up? I really want to get back there. And so then I'd find myself back there the next season and then eventually it came together. So who are these key five friends? So the main people up there were Josh Lowell was the, was the head filmer for center films. Cooper Roberts was up there. One of my very best friends, Corey rich is a great adventure photographer. He was up there with us and then Chris McNamara and then me, I guess it was five of us total.
Aaron:
Yeah, it's beautiful man. How great. So at what point in this, now you've got a community, now I have friends, now it's, it takes on a totally different experience. At what point did it look like? Okay, I think maybe from the code we're trying to crack that this is crackable and now you have vision and a path for how, how long did that take in the seven years?
Tommy:
It was not really that distinct. Like we're always waffling back and forth and being like, this is impossible, or this is possible. Like we'd break holds and we'd be like, Oh no, now this section doesn't go and you'd have to find a new way around. There'd be a lot of moves that were like, theoretically I could see this. Yeah. You know, it's doing this and if this was in the climbing gym or something, but now we've got to figure out how to do it on day 10, 1500 feet off the ground with NBC down the bottom footage. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't ever expect that to have, but that's for sure. Yeah. So right up to the end, I mean, Kevin, I got so obsessed by it. Like, I mean, I got obsessed by being up there wasn't nearly enough. I wasn't necessarily obsessed about accomplishing yet, but I got obsessed about working on it all the time. And I have this really like strong work ethic and it honestly a bit hard for Kevin to keep up with me a lot of times. And so he waffled even more than I did. He would totally give up and not want to come back. But then it got under his skin the same way I did mine.
Aaron:
So one of the things I was fascinated with watching you over the years and reading those climb magazine articles and openness and you know all the things that I just called, like mile markers along the way and then reading your book and hearing so much of story of you and your dad and, and really these amazing, I find it interesting is so you're 40 42 how old are you? 38 30 okay. So the amount of life experience you have for 38 to me is really fascinating because you're talking about these stories that you're doing with your dad, like when you're six and eight and 12 and 14 and then it was like you live a lot of life and then you have these crazy lows from the Curry sand story to divorced and then these amazing highs and like it's very unusual I guess is what I would say from my experience to have that much density of experiences and so many highs and lows.
Aaron:
But then having these like really rich people in your life too is really fascinating. So I thought I'd love to hear you say more just about, which I think is an anchor piece of just who you are and how you roll and why you do it. But your dad is like this. I love how you said that even in your book, like growing up, almost like a comic book, like heroic, you know, strong man, like he was just like amazing. Yeah. And pulled you in from a very young age, four, six, eight, 12 to do these. Really most people never do what some of the things you would accomplish at age 12 yeah. So what was that like now again going back in the writing and then taking in the rear view mirror, look at all those years and all those experiences. What did you find? Yeah, so I mean my dad's
Tommy:
Biggest gift, I would say the thing that he is probably better than anybody in the world that is spreading stoke. Like it's just such an, it just, yeah, I mean he convinces people that like the gnarliest conditions and the worst weather like this is, this experience is way better because of it. Even if he's a fly fishing guide these days, I know it's in a climbing and snowshoeing guide and when he takes people out and like a hundred mile an hour winds and asked us, which are actually quite common, they come back and be like, that was a life experience than any other guy. They'd be like, why was I out there? That was the worst thing. And so he was doing that with me from the time I was like three years old. So, yeah, if you get started that early, you're going to experience a lot.
Tommy:
But there was also this element of being kind of on the battlefield all the time from the time that I was really young, like we, like he had this, he couldn't sit still. And I think I inherited that. So every chance we got, we were out in the storms like when nobody was out just going through these experience. So I think I just got used to trying to make the most out of every moment. And the relationship with my dad in the book is pretty complex. You know, it's like a lot of it is beautiful. There's also some hard things about it. Like why was the stoke that high? I mean a lot of times you want to get out there every day just because it's fun, but also sometimes like there's like ego involved. And so I get into all these really complicated issues in there and I think that it's, it's pretty fascinating. It was, it was really kind of crazy to relive that writing it. Yeah,
Aaron:
I think that, I wonder as you mentioned we were getting in the bus here, like you know now this memoir and you expose, you know, your whole life now and now you're on tour to go store by store here at Patagonia and I'm sure lots of other from TVs to podcasts to whatever. So what are you finding so far as you've now gone on and told all these stories that maybe even a lot of your friends outside of your book Dr. May not have heard. What's that leave you with? Like are you stoked that they're out there now or do you have any caution or reservation like, Oh man, I wish I wouldn't have done that in chapter 12 or,
Tommy:
Yeah, mostly I'm very excited. There is an element I think, you know, I knew that I wanted to try and write a book that would transcend the typical like climber book or the typical sports biography. And so to do that you have to go deep, you have to be totally vulnerable. You have to throw it all out on the table. And so I did and while I was writing it, all I was thinking is like this is very cathartic. Like this is a great process for me to go through and I need to do this. If I want to write a good book. I wasn't really thinking so much about what I was exposing about other people. Like I'm used to being exposed myself. I've been in public figure kind of my whole life and I just, I just know that people have good hearts. They're not going to try and villainize you for the most part in the ones that do you know who cares about them? Right? Yeah. But I, you know, I expose pretty deep and sometimes dark things about other characters in this book that aren't necessarily used to being public figures and that's probably the hardest part specifically with my dad. I think it was hard for him to read this book, honestly. He's read it twice now already and it says, okay, I'm just curious about that.
Aaron:
I was curious if, if he got a galley copy or if he got early drafts and you say, Hey, just heads up. I just want you to know this is in there.
Tommy:
Yeah. He got, he got the galley copy. That was the first time you read it. You know, I kept it really tight in the inner circle between Kelly and me and a few critical readers. Yeah. Because I just didn't want that voice of consciousness and in my head I thought it would dilute it all the self editing. Yeah. So I didn't let it out until I finished that galley copy and I was headed off to Europe for two months cause I'm like I got this two month window between finishing the book and having to go on my tour and I want to really like have a great trip with my family. So I was like headed getting on the plane the next morning I had handed it to my dad and I was like, here you go. Read it. I hope you like it.
Aaron:
Yeah. Very cool man. Again, like it just, I find it really admirably unusual that you're as introspective and aware of all these things. And again, maybe it's just because you've seen a lot and like done some really, really bad ass stuff and yet you've had some really like horrific things that are so unusual that, you know, again, you, you end up on the front page over the years whether it's climbing with Chris Sharma growing up and you guys push each other to, you know, courtesy and stuff. I had saw another article recently on the Curry stand story and so I've been excited to talk to you, just fascinated of that's a lot to pack into a life and to be at a place now too that you're 38 and you've seen a lot and then are cognizant of a lot written, a memoir. And so I've been curious about like, okay the now what, I'm sure that is a question you get a lot, but also somebody as focused. I would just imagine that it would be difficult that some new quest doesn't end up in your sites just cause it's just sounds like that's your DNA.
Tommy:
Yeah, I'm sure it will. Yeah, I am. I'm sure that some quests will arise, but I don't know what it is at this point. Like I could see writing more. So it was kind of cool to diversify and this way. And it sounds like
Aaron:
Same guy who could pick apart El cap over seven years on this route
Tommy:
Into this book. Yeah, I think I'm super curious about the meaning of it all always. And that's a big driver. Yeah. I love when your stories opener in your book about digging the China as a kid. So tell that story. Yeah, that actually was a story that I added pretty, pretty late in the process. Brilliant story. Really good. Yeah. So I start chapter one with this story of me and this whole as a kid as like a four year old like digging a hole. I was trying to dig a hole to China and ask the spark Colorado which is all like solid, decomposing. Granted digging does not go fast. An inch and a half in you're at rock. Yeah. And this is, and this is actually my wife's suggestion to add the star cause she had heard other people telling her because yeah and I brought it cause it kind of embodies a lot of like what was built into me naturally and that was this kind of maniacal.
Tommy:
Like I stick to things longer than anybody else. And so the first story is seriously like me too. I spent years like chipping away at decomposing granite first with like a little garden sped and then like it was, I got a little bit bigger and got stronger. I did use like miners pics and the whole broke this tool so I can got another one in the garage. Yeah, the hole on me ever got like about three feet deep. But it just, I think it does a good job of illustrating like something about that process really has appealed to me from the very beginning. And so yeah, I've experienced a lot because largely because I just, I just stick with it until, you know, long past when most people would just stop. So all those stories that other people would like get started on in their lives and then just abandoned. I just, I just followed through, I guess, until they did. They're interesting stories. Yeah.
Aaron:
Snazzy. Why do you think, what I loved about that story is it really was an amazing setup for who is this guy? What's this guy like? And for to be that tenacious and that just fiercely unwavering and like I, I don't think insistence even a good word for it, but it was just a very, had nothing to do with climbing. Yeah. And yet all of a sudden you get a picture into who is Tommy Caldwell, right? He's a guy who sits in a hole for a couple of years starting age four and just won't, won't, won't, won't, won't let up because he heard, here's, here's on the globe, here's China and here's Colorado. There's gotta be a way to be fascinating.
Tommy:
Yeah. Pretty cool. You know, as I'm sitting here thinking about this too, like those years of digging that hole wasn't about, I mean it started about wanting to dig a hole to China, but I became about just like loving to be in the hole, digging and making progress. You know, I'd get like the satisfaction out of like a full finally I get a full shovel full and be able to throw it out of the hole, which is really cool.
Aaron:
What I, I thought you did a great job of in the vulnerability of a stories of it really does. I think for me personally, I love story because it helps me understand my own life and story and my work and my kids and my friends and whatever. So I love, cause I think it's easier when you can get outside of your own story, get in someone else's, whether a person or a fictitious character to give you some context of Oh okay, maybe that's what that's like. So I just loved how again, that the DNA that the deep seated pieces of you as it started there, well then it ended up on these all these other myriads of stories of, you know, on, on the casual route with your dad. And what was cool too is in much different ways have been in and around a number of the, of the things that you've done.
Aaron:
So I've been up on Broadway ledge and did Keener's route even. So I was like, Oh, I see that. I, I know where that is. Like I know what that's like. And I grew up as a kid in Bishop California and so just had a lot of kind of contextual pieces that I could see pictures of and just really enjoyed like how thorough you were in telling complete stories. And then very interpersonal too. But like you said, it wasn't just a traditional climbing book or an athletes endeavor. Here's all the cool stuff I did. Here's how I crushed it. Here's the award I got, you know, here's all the accolades I had and Oh, here's some mishaps along the way. I found it to be very different. And then Krakauer Jon Krakauer gave you one of the endorsements and I thought it was really spot on and he was like, this is one of the best books I've read and Oh by the way it happens to be a climbing book. Right. So that was pretty fascinating too, that to have someone of his writing caliper and experience to offer that kind of an endorsement. That was pretty fascinating. So curious just about your relationship with John and if that was a just an author endorsement or if that's actually personal connection and part of this writing community now.
Tommy:
Yeah, I mean, I first met John, my very first slide show I ever gave when I was 16 years old was for the long speaker union. And as this park like 15 people came, John was one of them actually there. So I met him there. But we live in this as climbers, we live in this. I mean there's such a great culture of good literature. And so since I'm so embedded in that world and you know, we all know each other, it's still kind of a small world. Yeah. And then one of my very best friends is Jim Collins gave another endorsement on the buy side. So good to great Jim Collins. He talk about him dragging him up El cap. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. And so there is this really interesting thing where I didn't know, I knew John, I had run into him a few times, but I didn't know him well.
Tommy:
But I went to Jim because he's a great friend of mine and I was like, I want to write a book, I need advice. And so he invited me down for this kind of think tank meeting that Jon Krakauer was going to be there. And it was for the Pat Tillman foundation. I actually didn't have much to do with, you know, I didn't have anything to do with my book, but he's like, if you come, you can kind of get involved in this thing and you can meet John. And so I got to hear those. Jim and John both lament over the writing process and it was funny, they were both like, I think you should write a book. But then they started talking about these stories or like, you know, Jim was like, man, when I'm writing a book in the final stages, I usually lose like 20 pounds and I get boils on my lips and John, I mean, they made it sound just dreadfully terrible in so many ways on these like prolific guy, right?
Tommy:
Yeah. And John specifically, it was like, just got to remember, it's like ditch digging. You just got to get there every day and dig ditches and dig a few feet every day. I was like, yeah, so of course I can do this and that. That helped hugely. And so I had that connection. Like they had helped me on the process, I guess. Yeah. And John, he was kind of like my advisor into this publishing world that I knew nothing about as well. Yeah, cool. It was really, yeah, it was. It was honored to have him as a friend now,
Aaron:
Which is great. Yeah, that's great. So one of the things that you mentioned about Jim Collins in the book, when you guys are on El cap and you ended up, you said you were taking him to kind of show him the way and yet you ended up having these really meaningful conversations on ledges and ballet stations and all that and he kind of ends up apprenticing you in these kind of bigger ideas. And I thought one of his really fascinating, I think he talked about was basically the flywheel principle. It's what he talked about. I think it was what it was called. So it's all right. Yeah. And so basically the idea of a flywheel is once you actually get it moving in the momentum, then it's easier to stay in motion effectively, I guess. Right. And so I thought it was really a fascinating explanation of like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Especially like watching your career now of like, Oh, this thing is like took a long time to get it turning now, but look at it turning and now it's like kicking off these really cool things that you've accomplished like that. Oh, that makes perfect sense. So I'm just curious what that conversation was like for you guys there. If you can tell that story here. I think it'd be super helpful for listeners.
Tommy:
Yeah. So Jim writes business books, but his theories that he's come up with kind of apply to everything and a lot of people are like, Oh business. They kind of roll their eyes in the climate, but when you spend time with them and you're like, gosh, you know, he just illuminates things like I get together with them and I get so excited because all of a sudden like, Oh big, you know, I know why I'm doing it. I spent an afternoon with Jim and now I know. Yeah. And so yeah, a lot of them, like the whole, the concept is one that just totally makes sense to me. Like I'm fully a hedgehog with your headshot guys goes just good at one thing, you know? And then, yeah, the flywheel was a huge one cause I spent a lot of time with Jim at a time when I was trying to figure out where I wanted to go.
Tommy:
And I had the Don wall in mind, but his bringing up that idea with the flywheel just got me thinking, what is the one thing in life that I could really Excel at? Like what is everything led up to? And yeah, doing something like that on walls became just reinforced the idea that that's where I should put my energy. But I still doubted it all the time. But having gym, like giving me a little bit of push so we, I mean I don't just spending time with them. It's funny, we'd go up on El cap and we'd climb together and he would just ask me these deep penetrating like questions that that would be so exhausting. Like by the end of the day, I'd be mentally fried and not from the climate. Yeah. From Columbia physically. I'd be totally fine. Give these penetrating questions. Love it.
Tommy:
Yeah. And Jim's a good friend and Jim was like the opposite. Yeah. He would be physically fried, but he's throwing off some scraps for you intellectually about these ideas that he ponders he's working about the climbing, but you guys perfect. We played off each other. Yeah, I know that's a good friend when you get in conversations and just like you don't like everything else. Just I mean like 10 pitches would fly by, it'd be like, how did we just climb this? I didn't even know that we even passed those 10 pitches so deeply and thinking about stuff. Yeah. So
Aaron:
I want to ask you two more questions. So one is as it relates to, we're about ready to go into Patagonia store and you'll have, you know, a couple hundred people show up and you'll tell stories, I'm guessing slide shows and sign books and the whole deal. What about this is just super weird and just not a fit in terms of now you, okay, you're an author and now you're on book tour and now it's not pining away by yourself on a ledge or in a hole or trying to figure out a dyno move over and over and over and over and over. And it's like, well, what about this is just not yet? What rhythm have you not found yet? Or what if it feels just awkward? Or is it all just, no, this is just another, another ditch and I'm just, you know, a way out of, I've just got to get a different tool cause I broke the last one.
Tommy:
Yeah, I mean I think one of the things that kept me in the hole is that I was socially so awkward and it really hasn't been my whole life. That whole was like my safe spot. And climbing can be that a bit too. So being in front of crowd, like I said before, has never been my comfortable spot. So yeah, it all feels somewhat awkward. But on the other hand I've matured to the point where I can see that being able to just show up and say a few words and have people be excited about that, that's a privilege, you know, that I should not squander. And I worked really hard on this book and so I want people to read it. So I'm, I'm excited to be here. Like it's cool to come to these events and have like several hundred people show up on my story. That's like, I mean, we're all self conscious in a way. We all kind of want external validation in some ways. And this is that, I guess.
Aaron:
Well, I think it's amazing. I saw an Instagram post you had I think from Boston maybe, and you're like, Hey, it turns out people still read books. There's a couple of hundred people in the Patagonia store. And, but I think it was cool about just the Patagonia crowd. Is it just, to me it's not big box retail, you know, it's not like going into a North face store. Others, I mean, it still feels like somehow some way the soul Yvon Chouinard is alive and well, and Lake street in Denver, you know, or Ventura, California or Santa Monica you just at, so where are you headed to next? So when you said you're headed to the airport.
Tommy:
Yeah, Santa Monica. Santa Monica. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. The Patagonia family, we all, I don't know, just that vibe is so excited these days and it's fun to show up at these stores. Like I've done a few tour events at Patagonia stores and I've done them elsewhere. And the Patagonia store is by far my favorite.
Aaron:
Yeah. The soul of it. Yeah. So other question is when you're not climbing and when you're not riding, what brings you joy?
Tommy:
Oh my family these days. Yeah, there's just too many good things going on in life. That's very first world problem. But I'm going to be away from home for two weeks and you know, my son's at an age where he really misses me. Now he's four and my daughter is kind of cluing into it too. And that's actually just a couple hours ago I was just playing around with them and they were so crazy and it was so fun. That brings me more joy than any of the rest of it. I mean it's like, yeah, I mean kids are painting the buttons so many ways, but there's this joy that's almost, you can't explain it really, but it's so deep and yeah, that's it.
Aaron:
It's cool. I had a friend of mine in Kona, Hawaii, and he, let's see, he probably was 52 maybe he had his first kid and iron man athlete and accomplished a lot. And it really kind of fun, fun friend learned a lot from. And so when they had their first kid, when he told me, I'm like, Hey, how's it going? And he's like, man, it is the most natural reorientation of priority that I've ever had in my life. And it was really cool. And I was like, Kevin, really? He's like, yeah man. Like everything else I've done up until now fails in comparison. I have no idea. But now like everything just kind of finds I like a natural, better orbit of priority now that my son's here. Yeah. I'm like, that's, that's been true for me. And it doesn't mean that I haven't gotten out of whack plenty.
Aaron:
Yeah. Lots in recurringly. But it does has had that effect for me of just a natural readjustment of what's most valuable and true and these other endeavors and things that I've done or accomplishment or things like even just hanging out with you, like it's fun for me to have my daughter here. Like, look here, look, check it out. Yeah. So it's just been fun to see you too, as I've heard, as your stories now have have shifted to be about family and your son fits that, right? Yeah. It's awesome. I think it's just brilliant. Yeah,
Tommy:
No, that's such a great way to look at it. Yeah, I would say, I don't know if I would say it's the most natural reorientation of like there's struggle there for me for sure. Like I have to let go of this things that I've held onto my whole life in some ways, but if you like, there's no question that it's the right thing to do, you know? Yeah. Drain it. This was coming from a guy who was 52 he had his kid for the first time. You need accomplish done a lot. Lots and lots and lots of years to do that. Lots of lots of lists. Yeah.
Aaron:
And I would agree. For me that hasn't always been natural, but I appreciate what he was highlighting is like, okay, yeah, you're, I think what's most true is things, this is the natural place that they should be is a center of my importance. Yeah. And I've struggled, you know, to make sure that that's actually true. But it is my true North. I can keep going back to, yeah. Yeah. So play, what do you do when you're not on the clock when you're not keeping score, what is it
Tommy:
Play look like the, I mean climbing is planning. I think I'm in this great place in life that I multitask. All those things like work is climbing it, you know, as you know, play is work. It's all, it's all intermingled in a lot and we've even figured out a way to do it with our kids too. Like we just got back from two months in Europe where we're at five weeks of that time we're in Fontainebleau, which is like, it was like the most fun place for kids ever, and so we're out there with them. They're teaching them how to climb. They're outdoors every day. It's like nice climbing. Just provides this, this great venue for all of it.
Aaron:
Awesome. Sweet. Thanks for doing this, man.
Tommy:
Yeah, no problem. Super fun. Yeah, at all.
Aaron:
You've been listening to work life play. If you like what you've heard, please do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It really does help. You can get more information about this and other episodes@aaronmacu.com thanks for listening. Thanks for being part of this adventure for being part of braving the pioneering work of discovering sustainable work life, play rhythms, love your work, live your life, and play a whole lot more. I'm Aaron McHugh. Keep going.

*We’ve done our best for this transcription to accurately reflect the conversation. Errors are possible. Thank you for your patience and grace if you find errors that our team missed.